Jesse, Paul Weimer, Maissa Bessada, and Evan Lampe talk about Rocket Ship Galileo by Robert A. Heinlein
Talked about on today’s show:
1947, the first of the Heinlein juveniles and also the least good, pretty bad compared to his later stuff, first read, Paul skipped the juveniles, back catalogue, proven Paul wrong, first read through, Evan Lampe is reading Heinlein for his American Writers podcast, you can tell, the formula is imperfect, study math, stop and study algebra, before we bomb the Nazis, do our physics studies, The Rolling Stones, more integrated into the plot, him doing Tom Swift, boy rocketeers!, almost no girls, there’s the mom (and that’s it), she’s knitting, a boys book, simple question, who is the Heinlein standin in this book?, Hargraves, painfully obviously, Heinleinian Socratic dialogues and opinions, digression about math theory, he’s a propagandist, adult Heinlein, Gulf, Friday, theories of intelligence and knowledge, all the things he says are right, side discussion, whether the back of the Moon exists or not, the stuff about the rainbow, defend Heinlein propagandism, continued his work for the proto-CIA, learn math in school to fight the cold war, yes you can, sir, what math is, the kids give back to him, not anything related to reality, this conversation with your math teacher, what the Moon in, that’s meta-science, epistemology, some of Evan’s favourite stuff, this book is weak, the philosophy of knowledge, what do we know and how can you prove it, the whole tides thing, a correlation, a good inference, the sun also tides, the moon might not but the sun definitely does, learned it in college, king tides, therefore its true, Hypatia of Alexandria, epicycles explained the motions of the planets, on point, its good, that guy just shot that guy, how do you know that?, when you’ve got 15 hours in a rocket, how do you know the house is on fire, the stoics, withholding judgements, the skeptics, our path to internal peace and freedom from disturbance, go through our life and assume that’s true, pragmatism, math’s that way, essential true but not, P. Pilate = Pontius Pilate’s middle name, a subtle expression of Paul’s unconscious, Evan’s middle name, however right wing he becomes in future, address people, for the listener in the year 3,0000, people were jerks, a political billy club on President Obama, lower yourself to your enemy’s level, tweeting about politicians, practical reason, less liable, account is locked, Elon Muskovites, Nikki Haley’s middle name, don’t call me Schicklgruber, deliberately disrespectful, that ship has sailed, puts Paul into the mud, stirring fecal matter, irkked, take em all on policy, I, Mudd, the stern schoolmarm, Harcourt Fenton Mudd, Paul as a parent scolding their full, I named you, a true name thing, Robert Anson Heinlein how dare you, why Destination Moon (1950) is so shitty, they took out the Nazis, the characters are uninteresting and unlikeable, Woody Woodpecker was Heinlein, the shotgun, garbage essentially, so propagandistic, here’s how we’re going to do it boys, they’re all old men, no females in the entire movie, The End… of the Beginning, it has no heart, its soulless, the skeptical guy, it really woiks!, you think the Bears are playin’?, boring, Apollo 13, a little bit of The Cold Equations, we want them all to die, I’d be embarrassed, he wrote at least part of it, why it is so shitty, they took the Nazis out because 1947 is very different than 1950, dealt with, the bad guys are the Soviets, who are our allies?, Werner Von Braun, it fucks the script, being sabotaged, all those people trying to stop them from going, plot pieces, second time reading it, NAZIS ON THE MOON?!!?, sabotage on earth, business meetings, you know what America has, American how-to-it-ness!, The Man Who Sold The Moon, D.D. Harriman, charisma, goals, they’re wasting Jesse’s time, D.D. Harriman is passionate, he’s a Reeve, wokescold Delos David Harriman!, Requiem, Expanded Universe, a prequel, a great couplet of a character arc, his lifelong dream, you guys suck you’re so boring, Jesse sounded like Cora, make the story kinda interesting, cute and very Heinlein, the little implied sex scene, radioactive fuel, Thorium, distribute the letters, that girl who’s hot on you, the bottled blonde, i’m hot on her, I guess you’ll find out soon, does the carpet match the drapes, this carpet is definitely made of wool, inappropriate pictures, porn to the Moon!, gotta keep up with your homework, an association copy on Haithi Trust, Heinlein inscribing it to his nephew, you are this character, proves Jesse’s point, Tuckerization, cool and interesting, reading this book blind, here’s a book, did Heinlein write it, point to certain things, one of the thing’s that’s pointed to, who are the kids who go to the moon, an all-American boy, a German immigrant kid and a Jew, a Heinleinism, Spider Robinson gives a Jewish accent, not make a big deal of it, ohhhh the Holocaust!, this must really traumatized, the UN has made Earth a happy basket except there’s fuckn Nazis everywhere, probably South America, Antarctica, searchers looking, not in Heinlein books, they’re in Washington DC in real-life, in the Heinlein universe, Canada, in Germany too, deNazified, maybe Maissa caught this, where they could do their testing, Little America, that’s Antarctica, not if you have a rocket that is nuclear powered, constant thrust, asked a science teacher, this week, why don’t we have atomic rockets?, he’s a smart guy, assume the best of our high-school teachers, the big technological question, why don’t we have atomic rockets, why haven’t moved beyond the steam engine, make water hot, solar energy, a solar sail, no NASA rockets that are nuclear, Voyager has radioactive decay, a trickle charge, Project Orion, very inefficient, opposite of constant, the lesson here is, at the origins of capitalism, capitalism hasn’t contributed to technological development, we manipulate the electrons a little bit differently, technology developed in the 19th century, David Graeber, stagnant from the, its shocking, the Marvel helicarrier is atomic powered, use electric power generated from a reactor, your fuel doesn’t get wasted but you need water, they ran outta water, thorium is atomic number 90, zinc steam, water, he’s hoping that this will work, the stuff coming out the back of the space shuttle, a radioactive cloud of zinc, what happened in Ohio the other day (but radioactive), he’s got the math wrong but the idea right, uranium would work, it’s a fudge, he’s trynna make a story, kind of scary, chunks of uranium or plutonium falling all over the place, a nuclear thermal rocket in space, take your fuel up there in space, pretty scary, you need to wear your radioactive film, Spider Robinson does a really good job with the audiobook, he doesn’t play the Heinlein stand-in very comedicly, that’s Heinlein hoggin all the best lines for his character, he’s knocked on the hear three times, shot in the head, an explosion on the base, and the third time on the moon, a Jules Verne move, rock head, The First Men In The Moon by H.G. Wells, that’s a Jules Verne one, a gun to the moon, making fun of Americans, the ballistic society, anti-gravity technology, pull yourself to any body in the sky, contragravity, push away from the earth, pull to the moon, very clever, Selenites on the Moon, I’m British!, does colonialism, they’re strong, they’re from Earth, a nice satire, your my cousin but its okay, whatever weird sex things he wants to throw in there, no politics (other than Nazis bad), all about the U.N., Space Cadet, U.N. Space Force, there’s Selenites in this book!, Blowups Happen, craters on the moon couldn’t have been meteorites, nuclear war, fission power, the slightest mistake, Lester Del Rey’s Nerves, take this energy source off Earth, the moon is like the lesson, novelette, 1940, Coventry, say his name!, that’s funny Paul, Stranger In A Strange Land, Glory Road, Evan’s destination, eager to get to, Maissa didn’t get through it, he can be rough, the lack of women hurt the book, maybe he was learning, Space Family Stone, his sexual politics are very interesting, girls don’t exist, they’re just budding, they don’t reproduce on the moon, his worst juvenile by a lot, so didactic, we have to have a trial, legalism, Farmer In The Sky, Boy Scout stuff, I’ll back you, I gave my word to your son, graduates of the high school, how most of us learn those lessons, Socratic dialogue, we have creepy uncle Heinlein, you made me think, the three families, only a mom, dad died in WWII, your a man, you’re my Jewish son, I disapprove, you need to let him go, how to make everybody man, Jordan B. Peterson, whatever the B stands for, women want to protect, men want to challenge, I don’t want my boy to get hurt, I want my boy to become a man, chooses to follow the second instinct, some of his female characters, Grandma Hazel, it’ll make a man out of you, dual instinct, rip-roaring six-gun, both things going on, gender dynamics, mother vs. father, Bernt?, a fuckwit, he doesn’t read enough!, getting his Latin wrong, a simple mistake, Marxist postmodernism, withhold judgement, his debate with Slavoj Žižek, re-read The Communist Manifesto, a 5 minute, not doing you homework, Whatifalthist, social dynamics, hatewatch, social ideas, everybody is a work in progress, read some real books, way out of date, in the bin with Jordan Peterson, Evan feels sorry for Jordan Peterson, daughter despises Jordan Peterson, we have a derth of public intellectuals, Žižek’s not perfect, he likes jokes, on that we agree, all the good philosophers kill themselves, more grounded, a more radical, serious left, so ignorant, propaganda going on, could have went to town on him, Žižek’s doing his own fucking thing, interesting, your job here is to crush this anti-communist, teach him, I’m not gonna think about that guy, they know he said something, he aint necessary for Jesse, you haven’t been told to clean your room, offering a path for people, he understands the same problem, his diagnosis is wrong, the problem is late capitalism, the Marxist post modernism trans-people, Evan worries about the boys, his sympathies are with the ladies, getting emotional, he’s saying it though, wash your armpits, talk to a girl, many do, Evan doesn’t have the patience for those people, pull up their bootstraps, Evan doesn’t feel bad for them, turn towards the right, become internet fascists, 20 year olds, some sort of psychopath, people who are off and lied to, a very small subset, they’ve been lied to about what communism and how the Soviet Union worked, in British Columbia there has been a law passed that requires every student to study indigenous stuff, part of a plan, slightly weird case with B.C., we’re gonna fix our problems with our natives by educating everybody about it, blockades in B.C., you have to study these issues, completely fucked up, making an inference, we have a plan in the future to not be assholes, elect governments with popular support, the Holodomor, the Ukraine deliberate famine by the soviets, Nazi monuments in Canada, strongly lobbying for anti-soviet campaign, a massive lobby, have this in the curriculum, Chrystia Freeland’s grandfather was a Ukranian Nazi, to demonize the Soviet Union, 99% bullshit, gulag system (gulag means prison), our job is to teach the incels or whatever you want to call them, they want to have girls like them, Evan had a dad, your mother can’t do that, Jesse pull up your pants and clean your room, in a cult for 20 years, another uncle is still in that cult, a much more obscure, Jesse likes Mormons, Eckankar, is it a cult if it is around for 100 year, Chanhassen, Minnesota, cut you off from your family, new religious movements vs. cults, religion, parents divorced because of capitalism, not a replacement for your dad, I’ve fucked up my life, here’s 12 rules, very simple things, you need a dad in your life, Joe Rogan’s real dad is still alive, Quentin Tarantino’s stepdad made him, we are weird creatures, model myself on somebody, where culture comes from, primitive tribe in the bush, it more effects boys, having the uncle there is really important, a lot of people don’t have anybody to model themselves on, a very different world now, just so insulated within themselves, just teaching each other, not really helping, a bad effect, we all need to re-read Bowling Alone, Elks Club, Shriner’s, Boy Scouts, the boomers, he always knows people, softball, without church, so socially isolated, internet is not replacing whatever that was, can’t get those incels into the Shriner’s club, capitalism has rooted out the thing, why we’re in front of screens all the time, 19 hours, relevant, a little old, social science, come to terms with it, he says everything seven times, a number of hobbies, Evan’s not wrong, wants to get us out on the streets, a rally today in Washington D.C., Rage Against The War Machine, 19th of February 2023, stop funding Ukraine, start funding Ohio, populists, a demonized word, farmers talking to each other, people hear the word Nazis, people expressing dissatisfaction, war bad, as Jimmy Dore points out, that’s not how you organize a movement, united on an issue, organize particular events, Occupy Wall Street, no agenda, there were no demands, let’s dissolve NATO, NATO bad, NATO Nazis, Jesse no, run by a former Nazi for a very long time, at the end of WWII, hey Germans we’re in charge now, the genetic flag, once you start looking at what the policy is, team world, back to the Cold War, a hate for the Soviets, prefer fascists over, Canada sending aircraft to Haiti to search for gangs, why is Canada trying to run Haiti, what the Americans can’t do in Haiti, we do what they say, you don’t want to be on the bad-side, Jesse is making Paul angry, the evils of Ukraine, not interfere with Ukraine, fare thee well, Ukraine would loose, not supporting Ukraine is saying Russia can do whatever you want, we’re not the world’s policeman, why don’t you just take all of it, what you are advocating, sorry can’t help you, Russia can do whatever the fuck you want, sucks for you, Paul is angry, have a good day, the issue, a set of beliefs about what’s happened, its hard to communicate an alternative narrative, televisions channels and newspapers, what’s actually happening vs. the narratives, why things have gone wrong so badly, 2014, 2020, the reason we’re in this is because of NATO, Canada picked a team, there’s only one Switzerland, some land almost nobody wants, rocks and salt-mines, if you don’t pick a team, one of the teams collapsed, team China, sympathetic in many ways, looking back, the great tragedy of 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union, mistakes, there’s us with the plenty, a chicken in every pot, the hobos are all gone, everything is grey, nobody has jobs, its always winter in Russia, homelessness, toxic everything, government completely corrupted, untested poisons, ethno-nationalism, Russians in Ukraine, Nazis in Ukraine who want to refight the war, where Evan is critical of China, how poverty has been eliminated, not the best example, in ethnic policy, irredentist towards Taiwan, what we inherited, this nationalism, Serbia, Kosovo, breaking up the enemy, a definitive article, the Nordstream pipeline, they don’t want Germany to have Russian gas, that’s bad, hurting Germany, they’re not on the same team, bad team to be on, we have your best interests at heart, there are consequences to that, transnational corporations, send more lobbyists to Washington, how the world was saved by lobbyists, the U.N. police, the third world movement, an alternative to the first and second world, Indonesia, India, what the U.N. calls for, in this book, give a voice to every country, that empire cannot do, the U.N. needs some reforms, votes based on population, there’s one big bully who refuses, the winners of WWI[I], we can’t have peace because profits, shouldn’t be thrown out, maybe it’s hopeless, better than the alternative, just empire, making fun of Jesse, the essential problem is propaganda, dwell too much in media, material conditions, what’s actually happening, hard to talk to Paul about Ukraine, what Aaron Rupar says, to cheer a team, against random war, how did that happen, designed to be done on purpose, in order to support it, it’s a proxy war, using other people to get your enemy, Zelenskyy ran on a platform of peace, know more, very little sympathy for post-Soviet Russia, a more democratic system in Russia, throwing rocks at your window, rock throwing was on purpose, the United States backed a coup in Ukraine, random wars, because NATO, why didn’t we dissolve NATO, let the Russians join NATO, global capitalism, neither is an alternative, competing nations amongst them, transnational elites, lots of forces, as an ethnic group, security being threatened, trying to crush the Russian economy, regime change, the drunk guy with the white hair (Yeltsin), was the American pick, Putin is the replacement, nation states are still more powerful than transnational oligarchs, Elon Musk doesn’t have an army or a navy, complexity here, Heinlein wouldn’t be happy, the Friday show, Heinlein is not as committed to the United States as people think he is, just the United States, important to the book, he thinks its a solution, Space Cadet, he’s right about that, we have 70 years of U.N. history to look at, The League Of Nations, solve the problem of war, that’s out the window, turned the cold war back on, democratic global civil society, the Westphalia system of sovereignty, violating the integrity of Ukraine, Jesse is not in favour of Canada or the United States annexing Canada, long silence, how do we convince people other than having a conversation, blow up buildings, whatever that was, 9-11 etc., pointing people to particular books, violence should be off the table most of the time, what Paul was saying, Crimea, Crimea was gifted, part of the Soviet Union, trying to make friends, we’re integrating, recolonization, this is not in a vacuum, Putin decided he’s a madman, they’ve seen the ill effects, tried to make nice, Russians or Soviets, a one sided animosity, the Russian Revolution and WWI, the British are responsible, a tiny Russian colony in Africa, near Djibouti, New Moscow, an attempt in the rush for Africa, too busy colonizing Siberia and Alaska, history is fascinating, this Ukraine stuff, not as evident, people who have the signs in real life, the Six Flag game, which three flags do you pick?, Palestine or Israel, Russia or Ukraine, Taiwan or China, different options, who are you, a certain media bubble, Israel Ukraine Taiwan, what’s the anti-imperial flag?, pirate flag, a mug’s game, a Rorschach test, putting those flags in your bio is the bad decision, a hammer and sickle on Evan’s twitter thing, force Evan to pick, Taiwan, Ukraine, Palestine, don’t accept the forcing, Americans aren’t Europeans, a cash generator for the arms industry, who speaks what, what language you learn in school, Africans don’t have this problem, multi-ethnic countries, China is 56 nations in one, Alsace Lorraine, eruozone, continental Europeans, Scots independent vote, ethno-nationalism, on the wane, nationalism, on the rise, has been for a while, funded by the United States, diverse by their borders, Nazis in Russia are not funded by the world’s biggest superpower, the yellow and blue flags everywhere, local businessman, rainbowflag, Ukraine flag, older people, former professor, nice piece of land, enough money on her pension, where do they get these signs?, she supports the things that are good, these aren’t necessarily good, reductionist, expressing solidarity like he/him is not wrong (it’s just silly), I support a proxy war in Ukraine, a series of provocations, a war since 2014, a team picked a side, strawmanning, we had the Minsk agreement, some measure of independence within Ukraine, Boris Johnson kiboshed that, subject to a lot of propaganda, maybe that makes Jesse a simpleton, Evan’s not sure what to do, keep tellin truth, all the Kubrick movies, Eyes Wide Shut (1999), a documentary, twitter bios, black white and green with a red triangle, a weird mix, mental illness, autism, the Scots flag is “based”, the Scots took over the British Empire, a bot or autistic, fake bio, CBSRadio Mystery Theater is based, needs a dad, The Crawlers by Philip K. Dick, The Golden Slave by Poul Anderson, another non-fiction, Pirate Enlightenment by David Graeber, Global Enlightenment, riled up, I didn’t know we were going to Ukraine, it went there, Rally to stop the War Machine, Yemen, against War with China, while America falls to shit, spill in Ohio, instigate a war, what happened at the U.N. right at the beginning, one china policy, which one was which, there’s only one China, Republic of China, self-determination, democracy, there’s another country involved, fucking around with some other part of Chinese policy, we should always say no to WWIII, don’t do that, flying planes over Taiwan, they need to grow up about it, the Chinese people, using Taiwan as propaganda, bring up Taiwan as a distraction, let the people of Taiwan decide, better than WWIII, persuade, the U.S. is really good at propaganda, dominate, incompetent as well, everything we learn is propaganda, math is propaganda, the belief I have that the moon has another side, some innate stuff, I don’t even know the word sexy, primitive stuff, that car looks cool, persuaded that it looks cool, don’t conflate what the US has been doing in Ukraine with Taiwan, its an island, a way to sell more weapons, everybody has to have vaccines, mandated, in response things, the United States is surrounding China, China is hiding submarines in the South China Sea, like it’s not their sea, it’s coming, a NATO of the pacific that they’re building, weapons, software, the NATO of Asia, the milk tea alliance, Australia, Japan, democratic forces in Hong Kong, Burma, Thailand, opposed to Chinese domination of Asia, SEATO, dissolved 1977, get Vietnam on board, finding allies in the region, making progress, developmental outcomes, pick fights with the Philippines, Philippines is occupied, 3 new bases, North Korea and Vietnam, in the pocket, best friends, Germany is still occupied, recognize Cuba?, not occupied, even Britain has American military bases, Trump’s right, better alternatives, Jimmy Dore for president, no good alternatives to American empire, one member doesn’t want to play nice, China signs up for stuff, at the heart, an evil cabal in that Stanley Kubrick movies, Cecil Rhodes’ guys, listen to Alex Jones, he knows what’s going down, evil trans-nationalists, what caused WWI, entangling alliances, the blank cheque, multipolar, start acting like Switzerland, 1600 – 1940s, no allies, on the side of democracy, people should have power, global civil society, Shriners International, Idahoan scouts jamboreeing in Tiananmen Square, go to see the moon with your space friends, he needs to be looked at in a careful way, too RAH! RAH!, American exceptionalism, a radical part, stay healthy, make up with Paul, propaganda that’s good for you, Heinlein is good propaganda, not an echo chamber, say where he’s wrong, cutting yourself off from other people, banning this blocking that, missing something important, not trying to make an enemy, imagine in 50 years, a cheerleader, Lovecraft, fascism is a good idea, before the ovens, Mussolini is silly, causes deaths.